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My personal feedback on the last beta test.

BliglibooBligliboo
LawBreakers Rep: 1,070
Posts: 81
Member
edited August 2, 2017 in Beta Gameplay Feedback & Suggestions
Hello,

First, i want to say that the game looks more balanced actually than before. I really notice that this game is going to a better way after each beta tests. So, thanks to the Lawbreaker's team. Good job. :)
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Sandbox tutorial:

Very good mode, very usefull. Even if i have lot of hours on this game now, by playing previous beta tests, i was able to learn new things in this mode and was able to test slowly all the classes and just see how much damage each class can do, their mobility compaired etc...
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Balance:

Here are just my personal thoughts:
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Battle Medic:

I don't played him too much because actually i really don't like the crosshair of this class. The crosshair is hiding all my screen. I just would prefer to have the possibility to choose a simple green dot as a crosshair (or a little cross), so i can focus myself only on the target and my projectiles.
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Titan:

I like the changes. This is not making him OP with it. It's just that actually you are a little bit more comfortable with your ammo, and i think it's good. Same with his "shift" ability. This class feels pretty well balanced for me.
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Vanguard:

I really like the change on Pulsar. This encourage me for to use more often Pulsar as a mobility tool. Really notable. Because yes, i think that before the fuel consumption was a little bit to high for to try to use this in critical situations (for example when you reload and you want to escape).
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Enforcer:

Finally, his basic kit feels more fair now. He's still strong, but more fairly IMO.

I still don't like very much his ultimate, but when i compare this to other ultimate abilities, i see that most of the time his ultimate can do just one kill, when some of the others can do multiple kills. So i think actually i can deal with it. But yes it's a strong ability, i only don't like very much the auto-lock component.

My biggest problem with him was that his basic kit was way too strong, and now it's better.
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Wraith:

He feels more fair now. Less abuse of the right-click, more skilled to play. Still really strong. Still good mobility. You still can take the flanking paths on Promenade and Grandview. With those changes he keeps a very good mobility with good damage, it's just that actually you can't just spam his right click for kills.

Some people want for him a nerf of his SMG damage. But i think it's not a good idea, because when i see the power of Enforcer and Gunslinger, i think he need a good damage for to compete with them. If they nerf too much his damage, he can be useless in future.

And i really noticed a change in games, no more full Wraith teams... :)
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Gunslinger:

Before, maybe Enforcer was just hiding the power of Gunslinger. Actually i think that he's a little bit too strong. And i noticed a change in games, way more Gunlingers in games.

His TAC Knife does maybe a little bit too much damage, but it's a situational tool, most of the time i think it's better to use this as an utility tool. Maybe a nerf to 150 or 175 damage? I don't really know, i don't think that is this knife damage which are making him too strong.

For me, Gunslinger need to be stronger than Enforcer at a long range. Actually he is, but maybe a little bit too strong. I already said in the previous beta test that his max damage on the Omega pistol are a little bit too high. Because he just can 2 shot an Assassin with body shots. So maybe nerf the damage to 140?

For me, one of the problem of his Omega pistol is when he surprise someone. With a headshot, actually he can do 240 damage. I think it's a little bit too excessive.

And with the reduction of his cooldowns, he has more survivability now. If i calculate well, his warp combo do 290 damage (only bodyshots). Isn't this too big? idk. I remember when i did a warp combo on a Titan's head, he lost about 3/4 of his HP... :D And died with few more bullets.

With the sandbox tutorial, i was able to see that the Omega has only two different damage, charged and non-charged damage. Before i was thinking that if i half-charge the Omega i do more damage than uncharged shot. But no... :D So i understand now why people spam both guns, and i started to do the same (in some situations). But there are good spammers and bad spammers (because at a longer range, a good spammer will aim differently with both guns).

A good thing for GS can be to add the possibility for to reload each gun really when you want, because in some situations you can't and both guns starts to reload.

And i don't know if it's a change or not, but actually you can't charge your Omega before a warp. I was thinking that i was able to do this before, but probably not.
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Juggernaut:

Juggernaut feels more fair to me. His DPS are pretty fine actually. One of the problems i have with him now, is that you need to reload too much. That's why i think that a good thing for him can be to decrease his fire rate and increase his damage for to be able to have more sustain in fights. Because actually "50%" of the time, i just reload with him. The bullets goes too quick.

Another problem with him, it's his animations, i think that they are a little bit too slow. After a wall there is a little delay when you can't sprint or jump directly. Same after a sprint+jump, you can't blind fire directly. And i think that's important for him to have fast animations just like his melee combo.

Other than that, by testing him, i think that his sprint speed, jump length and fuel are fine.

Last thing, i don't really understand why i can't use my wall in all directions? (only vertically actually) But maybe this can create some abuse in close quarters (to jump on your wall, and to shoot people below you and things like that).
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Assassin:

For me, Assassin is actually the weakest class of the game, she feels a little bit more weak than others. I don't think that the problem is her damage, i think it's more about her overall design. I will try to explain this well.

I did some tests in the sandbox tutorial. On the first Juggernaut on the left (near the spawn). I was trying to be at the biggest distance from him (near the spawn, i was sticking myself on the wall behind me for to be at the biggest distance from him). And i was testing how much bullets i need to kill him at this distance. I don't remember the number of bullets, but it was really a lot, maybe something like 5 full clips of the shotgun or even more. Even with charged shots. The bullets of her shotgun loose lot of damage at a mid range. Then i tried other classes. For Wraith you need a little bit more than 1 clip (and 1 clip with the explosive knife), with Enforcer you kill him with 1 clip, with Gunslinger you kill him with 1 clip (both guns).

So the Assassin's shotgun is clearly designed for close range. And with her HP you can't go directly at front of your ennemies because you are an easy prey for them. If you try to attack an Enforcer or a Gunslinger at front, you are just dead. A Wraith can try sometimes to do some damage at front of the enemy, because of his SMG and his explosive knife. But with Assassin you need to flank. And the problem is that when you want to flank pretty fast, you loose your charges, and you need to wait for the cooldowns (2 charges=8 seconds), because you just don't want to suicide yourself by going on the enemy, you need some charges for to escape if something goes wrong. I mean, actually if she's good only at flanking on close range, she don't have enough of mobility, i think she need more.

Less cooldowns, or maybe just another thing: to be able to dash in all directions (Gunslinger can). Because in low-g, you can just dash horizontally. And you can't only rely on your grappling hook for to hook people. The hook is not very consistent because if the enemy just move a little, you can fail your hook, and you can be spotted. You still can blind fire though, but for the blind fire there is a delay when you can't blindfire after switching from blades to shotgun.

My point is just that i think: if she's designed only in close range, i think she lack of mobility actually.

Another possibility can be to reduce the spread of the shotgun, for to be able to do more damage at mid range. But maybe to reduce the damage of the charged shots to 200, maybe. Because i feel like one of the most consistent thing to do with Assassin actually, is to use the charged shots of shotgun in close range, and then sometimes use the blades after. A charged shot do about 230 damage at close range. 2 non-precise blade attacks do 125 damage... 2 precise blade attacks do 250 damage. So i understand why lot of people use first the shotgun. And 3 non-precise blade attacks do 223 damage, even less than the charged shot.

There is another problem with the precision system. I did some tests in sandbox tutorial. If i just want to dash near the Juggernaut and to do quickly only 1 blade attack, even if most of the time i feel like my crosshair is on target, i do only 50 damage, so less than a simple kick. And i can't understand that. There is possibly a delay problem with servers or something. Wraith need less skill for his right click, but he does a consistent 125 damage with it. So first, i think there is a problem with the 50 minimum damage of the first attack. And second, i think that Assassin's blade attacks are too much designed for combo only. I would like to have the possibility to do just 1 or 2 quick slashes to the enemy, and then switch to the shotgun. Actually i don't think it's really worth it.

You need to be really precise with blades, you can't rely only with your grappling hook, because if an enemy see you, even if you hook him, he just can kick you, and kill you. And for quick attack blades after dashes, she's pretty limited because of the charges and poor damage of the first attacks.

Assassin can be strong in some situations, but in my opinion actually she need some tweaks for to be more viable in comparison with other classes.

Comments

  • EpoxyEpoxy
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,160
    Posts: 83
    Member
    The number of abilities and actions in this game that cause a ~1s GCD is kinda crazy. Not a fan of that.

    Blindfire delay after reloading or switching weapons, delay on VG shells after rmb, jugg after walling, etc... they're all artificial limits imposed on players. Art and thematic integrity are great but refractory periods like these pull you out of the moment. There's no indication of when you will regain functional control either meaning you have to just mash the appropriate button and hope.
    Love_Antenna_01Bligliboo
  • BliglibooBligliboo
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,070
    Posts: 81
    Member
    Epoxy wrote: »
    The number of abilities and actions in this game that cause a ~1s GCD is kinda crazy. Not a fan of that.

    Blindfire delay after reloading or switching weapons, delay on VG shells after rmb, jugg after walling, etc... they're all artificial limits imposed on players. Art and thematic integrity are great but refractory periods like these pull you out of the moment. There's no indication of when you will regain functional control either meaning you have to just mash the appropriate button and hope.

    Yes, i agree. I am pretty used to those delay times now, but yes, i hope this can be fixed in the future.

    _____________________________

    Some additional ideas:

    Assassin:

    -a global cooldown for her charges: for example 10 seconds. When you start to use one dash or one hook, there is a global cooldown, and after this cooldown, all charges are resplenished. But i don't think it's a good idea because this can be possibly less skilled.

    -seperate charges for dashes and hooks. For example 3 charges for dash, and 2 for hooks, or 2 for dash and 2 for hooks. So you can use your hooks most of the time for to travel the map, and keep your dashes for combat.

    I saw some videos about last tournaments for Lawbreakers, and it seems like Assassin was more picked than Wraith. In the final match, both teams had Assassin on their team. So maybe Assassin is actually pretty well balanced? If Assassin is pretty well balanced at the highest level, it's fine for me.

    I am not an Assassin main, i was trying to play lot of different classes for to test all of this. But for sure, i can improve my skills with Assassin and other classes. So maybe Assassin is just very good actually and i am just a bad Assassin player! :D

    Juggernaut:

    I really like the actual power of his blind fire. It's much better than the previous power when he had a lower fire rate. If the fire rate is changed, this can be good to keep the actual power of his fire rate for to not be too slow in low-g.
  • KangaJooKangaJoo
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,935
    Posts: 199
    Member
    edited August 3, 2017
    Assassin shotgun has a max dmg of 270 not 230 and the uncharged shots do 100 dmg each. As far as I could tell there's no actual dmg dropoff on the shotgun it's just that the pellets spread out over distance to the point where past about 15-20 m the pellets on the edge of the cone of fire will start to miss.

    As for the assassin being weak, it was pretty consistently putting up relatively high scores during the tournaments and pugs last beta and it is very easy to abuse that shotgun if you adopt the right playstyle. Actually that's what I think the assassin's main problem is: you pretty much are forced to play a specific playstyle because the class is incredibly strong in cqb situations where they can peek in and out of cover but very weak in other scenarios. I think it would probably be good to make the shotgun less powerful up close but more powerful at longer ranges. That way assassins can be relevant in more situations without feeling like you auto win up close engagements.

    For gunslinger I think you're right the max dmg is probably a little too high. I think they made it that high on purpose so that it could compete with the old enforcer's DPS but now that he's nerfed it could be lowered a little from 160. I also think the warp combo might be a little too strong since you can theoretically hit people for 290 dmg in less than a 1/3 of a second and that's before hitting any headshots. Maybe they should look into reducing the rof slightly on the warp combo.
    Bligliboo
  • BliglibooBligliboo
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,070
    Posts: 81
    Member
    edited August 3, 2017
    KangaJoo wrote: »
    Assassin shotgun has a max dmg of 270 not 230 and the uncharged shots do 100 dmg each. As far as I could tell there's no actual dmg dropoff on the shotgun it's just that the pellets spread out over distance to the point where past about 15-20 m the pellets on the edge of the cone of fire will start to miss.

    As for the assassin being weak, it was pretty consistently putting up relatively high scores during the tournaments and pugs last beta and it is very easy to abuse that shotgun if you adopt the right playstyle. Actually that's what I think the assassin's main problem is: you pretty much are forced to play a specific playstyle because the class is incredibly strong in cqb situations where they can peek in and out of cover but very weak in other scenarios. I think it would probably be good to make the shotgun less powerful up close but more powerful at longer ranges. That way assassins can be relevant in more situations without feeling like you auto win up close engagements.

    For gunslinger I think you're right the max dmg is probably a little too high. I think they made it that high on purpose so that it could compete with the old enforcer's DPS but now that he's nerfed it could be lowered a little from 160. I also think the warp combo might be a little too strong since you can theoretically hit people for 290 dmg in less than a 1/3 of a second and that's before hitting any headshots. Maybe they should look into reducing the rof slightly on the warp combo.

    Thanks for the info.

    I was testing on the sandbox tutorial and i changed the settings for to be able to see my damage. With this setting i can see the damages shown quickly on the target, but probably with this system some numbers are hided by others. So on my screen i saw 230 damage. I think it would be better to have a little screen which shows how many damage you do in 1 second, 5 seconds and 10 seconds, something like that. Because with the actual system, this is sometimes hard to see how many damage you can do. Especially with damage like Juggernaut when he jump on someone.

    So yes, with 270 max damage at close range for the charged shot, i just totally understand why people plays only with shotgun. I saw some videos of the best Assassin players on tournaments. And yes, most of the time they only play with the shotgun, and i totally understand that. What's the point to risk to use one dash for to do a blade attack when you know you can do 270 damage and more with the shotgun at close range? I remember some games where i was just using this technique, to use charged shots behind walls (by hiding) and i did some kills like that. Or just to dash into someone, fire some normal shots and then fire a charged shot, and you can do lot of kills like that. But i wasn't only focusing on this playstyle because i wanted to see how much i can do with blades too. But blades are actually just a situational tool. If you want to do some damage to someone by using a dash, with shotgun it's safer, you don't need to be as precise with your dash as blades. And while you are dashing, you can start to do some damage. So for me, i think there is clearly a problem with the mechanics of this class. Even if Assassin can be powerfull in some situations, it would be better to have the possibility to use all her kit and not only your shotgun because it's the most viable option.

    So personally i think that if they want to fix this, one of the only options i see now is to make the shotgun more like a longer range weapon. And maybe too, to fix the precision system of blades at high speed, and to not make the blades damage high only after some combo, but buff a little bit the first blade attack.

    For the shotgun, actually i would like to see the charged shot doing pretty the same thing like on this game (Midair, the pink color weapon):

    https://youtu.be/BGtDwhVlupg

    Less damage on the charged shot but maybe more fast projectile and smaller spread. And for normal shots, more ammo in the clip, less damage, faster projectile (a little bit), and smaller spread. So it can be more like a sniping projectile gun. With this, Assassin don't need to be only close range oriented, and the power of her shotgun can be better at longer range but much weaker at close range, so it would be a better thing to do damage with blades at close range but not only, you still can use your secondary weapon before you land on the target, but the damage are less important at close range.

    But maybe i am going too far now... :D Because the class has a basic design actually, and i really doubt that they change this that far at the current state of the game. However, i think this is possible to do some things, but finally for me, even if they decide to keep the actual design of the class, i can deal with it. Even if the shotgun is still the most viable option for Assassin in future, you still can sometimes do those satisfying grappling hook kills and other things, situationally. So i don't have a big problem with this, if i want to play Assassin at release, i need probably to adapt my playstyle.
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    For Gunslinger, i am not sure if it's a good idea to make a lower rate of fire for his warp combo, because it's the only strength of the warp combo. But if they think that the actual damage of the warp combo are a little bit excessive, there is always something to do against this.
  • KangaJooKangaJoo
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,935
    Posts: 199
    Member
    That's basically the alt fire i've been wanting on the romerus for a while. Something like a precise, fast moving projectile that isn't amazing at mid/long range but at least makes it so you're not a sitting duck outside of cqb.
    Bligliboo
  • ABSURDELINGABSURDELING
    LawBreakers Rep: 510
    Posts: 12
    Member
    Epistles about menial things like class balance.

    This game has much greater problems, but with feedback like this it's no surprise that it never turned into something better during test phase.

    $29 Nexon game, whatever. Just too bad about the wasted art assets.
  • BliglibooBligliboo
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,070
    Posts: 81
    Member
    OH! A genius!

    I just saw your feedback, which is basically something like this: "OMG! I can't camp on roofs! Cliff Blueballski you're not my friend!"

    So why don't you share a perfect feedback instead of this crap?

    For me, you are just a troll.