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Controversial rant on what I hate the most

iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
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This post might be a bit salty, TL;DR at the bottom. First I will vent, then become more constructive.

I hate to do this, because I think making discussion this way is not good practice, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I am actually wondering if I should get the game or not. (yes, I'm employing this shithead strategy, sorry). There's so much to like about this game, and then there's this thorn in my eye that makes me dislike it at the same time. To give some background to this, I'm going to self quote what I said on another topic.
Everytime theres a new game I hope this will be THE game I will love, but in each game there's some cancer mechanics that ruin it in the long run. You can try to ingore the things you don't like, but in the long run you will build up insane aggravation and just quit the game.

Planetside 2: the NC faction's airplane's hitbox is so big that it sucks in dogfights. I don't wanna switch factions and start all over again.
Dirty Bomb: Snipers are OP as hell, have insanely high bodyshot damage, and 1 shot headshot kills. Accelerated player movement makes sniping easy in this game
Overwatch: 0 player movement acceleration and large projectile sizes make luck a really big factor in this game. HANZO $*$**$*$* The game also is lacking vital UI elements like proper healthbars and damage indicators. No team status UI either.

I really want to like lawbreakers, but playing in the beta I already find myself incredibly frustrated with some things. And I feel like those things make me leave the game in the long run. I might be able to put myself over it for a while, but not forever. At least they will already have my money.

What am I referring to? The :s battle medic :s . This hero ruins the fun of this game for me. The healing drone just ruins otherwise fun and fair engagements. Press a button and your teammate has won the fight. This scumbag strategy is exacerbated by the frequent occurrence of unbalanced matches where one team is with 1 less player. The team with a man up then runs battle medic, to ensure that there is NOTHING left of whatever little chance the opposing team had to make plays. I can't describe in words how my soul dies when I'm fighting an equally skilled player, be at a miniscule health advantage because I optimized my aim slightly better than the opponent, be about to get rewarded for my better tracking, and have some scumbag enemy no skill battle medic ruin it by pressing e. (ok.. this character still takes skill, but... #*$^&%@#@#$&*) Call me a scrub or whatever, but I have the right to express my deepest disenjoyment of this mechanic.


Ok, thanks for reading through that, below I argue with actual arguments why I think the current implementation of the battle medic is bad.
Let's look at the healers in planetside 2. This class isn't frustrating at all to play against for several reasons.
1. The TTK is much lower, you can melt someone that is being healed easily.
2. Healers don't apply a shield to their targets
3. Most importantly, healers must put themselves at risk to heal teammates, as the range of healing abilities is 3 meters only.
4. The healer class cannot fire weapons while healing. Alike mercy's healbeam, it is equipped and channeled in the main hand.

Now let's take a look at LB's battle medic.
1. The healer has to put themselves at no risk at all while healing a teammate. They can do it from a comfortable distance.
2. The healing and shield disproportionally benefit characters with small hitboxes and low health totals. It is much harder to chew through an 80 point shield on a gunslinger than the same on a titan. If small hitboxes are part of that character's survivability, healing and shieding makes them unkillable. Not to mention if that character's damage out put is high like gunslinger (to compensate for their low health), you cannot survive long vs gunslingers.
3. The healer uses the ability off handed, and can pelt their enemies with grenades all while healing 2 teammates at once.

Let's fix this massively unfun mechanic. I'm not actually sure if I know a good fix, but if you complain you should also suggest solutions. The following three points form one suggestion.
1. Remove the healing drone shield alltogether.
2. Healing does not apply if the target has taken damage in the last 1 second. -> no more in combat healing.
3. Healing now has the same speed as the health stations located on the map. The healing ramps up over time so a high health total target can be healed relatively quickly. If the healed target deals damage to an enemy, the healing is interrupted similarly to health station heals.

With these changes, the battle medic is still relevant, because it lets teammates regain their health without them having to waste time finding a health station. With less wasted time they can contribute to contesting the objective much sooner.

This might also drastically reduce the power level of the battle medic role as a whole. Buffs could be applied to other areas of the character, such as their grenade launcher, to offset this power loss.

These changes should completely remove the aspect of this hero that gives me cancer. Which is frag denial in the lamest form.

TL;DR
The battle medic ruins this game for me. It is the worst feeling to have your playmaking potential taken away by a player who does this by their mere existence. Rework battle medic to be an out of combat healer. Remove the role's frag denial aspect. Buff the nade launcher and out of combat healing output.
BliglibooJustSamIBM_d3m1urgitstrue
  1. I hold the following highly nuanced opinion15 votes
    1. I thoroughly enjoy my frags being denied by a hero that has to put themselves at no risk to do it.
       33% (5 votes)
    2. I enjoy trolling my opponents out of their hard worked for rewards.
       13% (2 votes)
    3. Pls change this. This isn't fun. It ruins the game.
       53% (8 votes)

Comments

  • BliglibooBligliboo
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    I agree.

    I can deal with the actual healing mechanics of the Medic. But yes, i would prefer that the healing stops directly with damage, and a healing without a shield. This can be frustrating when you know you can kill someone, and then he is shielded by a Medic.
  • EpoxyEpoxy
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    edited July 30, 2017
    Only thing I agree with is removing the shield component from drones. The heal I don't mind, though I wouldn't object to tightening the leash on the drones so the Medic has to stay in closer proximity to their target to keep the drone active. Didn't vote in the poll because it's comically biased.

    One interesting and probably horribly imbalanced idea I just had is to tie the healing to medic's damage output. X% of the medic's damage output is siphoned to and split between drone targets/medic. That way in order to be a good healer you have to be good at landing nades and if you can't kill a drone target because of the healing then it's your team's fault for clumping and giving their medic free splash and increasing her HPS. Probably isn't even technically possible but it would be fun I think.
    iLikeCookiesQ
  • ShawnHalogenShawnHalogen
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    Healing isn't hard, but it's not as easy as you make it sound. In a perfect world, sure. But even the slightest amount of cover prevents you from healing. Not only that, but when players are dodging enemy attacks, they typically don't stand still. I find that players will run into tunnels or whatever. The medic mobility is not nearly as high as assassin or wraith, so trying to catch up to those guys to heal is a **.**. And then you only have 2 drones with 4 teammates with a cool down that seems like forever. I know this because the game makes this old school windows 98 sound everytime I try to use it and it's on cd. And after all of that, if you have teammates close together, trying to heal a specific player is a crap shoot.

    The take away from this is that you should have a person on your team specifically target the medic. Preferably a gunslinger. Force the medic away from the fight.

    Is the medic perfect? Not at all.

    Maybe instead of a drone going to a specific player, it goes to the ground and heals within a certain radius. For a player to heal, they would lose mobility. Even if they still got a shield out of it, they would lose it once they leave the area.
    Dualseraphmage
  • seraphmageseraphmage
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    ...
    The take away from this is that you should have a person on your team specifically target the medic. Preferably a gunslinger. Force the medic away from the fight.

    ^ This pretty much says it all. If an enemy medic is doing their job they SHOULD be denying your frags. Their primary purpose is to heal their allies in those critical moments, potentially bringing their team back from the brink of defeat. Taking this into account, the enemy medic should be a high priority target. Nerfing them to the point that they are no longer a nuisance to people's desire to get a high kill count is the wrong answer.

    I made a suggestion in another thread that amounts to replacing the Battle Medic's passive heal with a drone self-healing mechanic. In essence, the medic would have to have at least one of their drones on their person to receive the passive healing. This turns the healing drones into less of a free resource. The medic now must decide whether healing two allies at once is worth the extra vulnerability. This is, of course, just one of many possible ways to tweak the role without making it near useless.
    ...
    Maybe instead of a drone going to a specific player, it goes to the ground and heals within a certain radius. For a player to heal, they would lose mobility. Even if they still got a shield out of it, they would lose it once they leave the area.

    This seems a lot like the Harrier mobile healing/fuel stations.

    serch54
  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
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    The take away from this is that you should have a person on your team specifically target the medic. Preferably a gunslinger. Force the medic away from the fight.

    This is only possible when you are playing as a coordinated team. What appealed to me about LB is that I can have a much higher personal impact on the outcome of the game than let's say, Overwatch. I cannot get my teammates to focus targets or coordinate, simply because I am only 1 person, and people are not in comms. If I wanted to play a game where I need to 100% rely on my team to not suck, I could just go back to Overwatch.

    A ranked mode could somewhat alleviate the battle medic problem. This mode would ensure 5v5 games, and also encourage people to coordinate. But as far as quick matches go, the role is a gamebreaker.
  • seraphmageseraphmage
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    ....
    This is only possible when you are playing as a coordinated team. What appealed to me about LB is that I can have a much higher personal impact on the outcome of the game than let's say, Overwatch. I cannot get my teammates to focus targets or coordinate, simply because I am only 1 person, and people are not in comms. If I wanted to play a game where I need to 100% rely on my team to not suck, I could just go back to Overwatch.

    A ranked mode could somewhat alleviate the battle medic problem. This mode would ensure 5v5 games, and also encourage people to coordinate. But as far as quick matches go, the role is a gamebreaker.

    Wait, how does prioritizing an enemy support role require any more coordination than any other part of the game? If you see a medic, shoot at it. I don't mean that to be as antagonistic as it might come off (text lacks tone, etc.). I'm really just confused.

    Due to the fact that all of the game modes in Lawbreakers come with an objective, some level of team coordination is always required. If your whole team is just running around trying to get frags and ignoring said objective, you will lose the match regardless of K/D. Enemy support roles are just another obstacle to overcome in reaching the objective.

    Chaos_de_Tejasserch54
  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
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    The medic character carries game just because of the hero pick, not because of your player skill as that character. You need coordination to be able to kill the medic, who will stay in areas where he is protected by teammates. Simply going in and attacking the medic up close is a quick way to die by being outnumbered. Gunslinger and Enforcer force attrition style battles, because they can kill the close range characters so quickly that those roles won't be able to do much, even if they are focusing the medic. Playing medium range attrition isn't something you can do very well alone.

    If you brainlessly try to focus the medic you will die over and over if that medic knows where to position. You need your team to help kill the medic. Will they? In quick match probably not. The medic class forces the enemy team to coordinate or lose more so than any other role.

    #MercyMainsRuinedLawbreakers2017
  • Chaos_de_TejasChaos_de_Tejas
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    edited August 1, 2017
    So Battle Medics who know what they're doing in a competitive match forces the enemy team to be coordinated, but not so much in sloppy pub match? Sounds like the opposite of a problem to me.
    seraphmageserch54
  • seraphmageseraphmage
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    The medic character carries game just because of the hero pick, not because of your player skill as that character.

    I completely disagree. Having played the beta pretty much non-stop, if any roles "carried" it was the higher DPS roles such as Wraith and Gunslinger, which consistently sat in first place on most teams. If a Battle Medic managed to carry a team it was most certainly because they were skilled; skilled enough to not only heal their allies at the right time but also contribute to their team's DPS and stay alive. This latter objective was a challenge in itself due to the fact that the enemy team did often prioritize the medic as a target and the role itself has some survivability issues that have been addressed in multiple threads since the beta.
    You need coordination to be able to kill the medic, who will stay in areas where he is protected by teammates. Simply going in and attacking the medic up close is a quick way to die by being outnumbered.

    ...

    The medic class forces the enemy team to coordinate or lose more so than any other role.

    Protecting the medic requires just as much coordination on the enemy team's part as it does on your team to take the medic out of play so what's the problem?

    Healing an ally requires line of site. Teams only consist of five players. No player can be in two places at once. As such, the other four enemy players are either in line of site of (i.e. "grouped up with") their medic or somewhere else. If they are "somewhere else" then this discussion doesn't apply to them. If they are grouped up then I would expect your team to be moving as a group (however coordinated or uncoordinated) against them. Even without the medic in play you are likely to die if you are consistently throwing yourself at groups where you are outnumbered.

    This is a game that includes support roles by design. We are getting another one at release (i.e. Harrier). While you are not out and saying it, it really seems like the gist of your argument is "delete support roles so I can frag easier."

  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
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    So Battle Medics who know what they're doing in a competitive match forces the enemy team to be coordinated, but not so much in sloppy pub match? Sounds like the opposite of a problem to me.

    I was saying that it DOES force the enemy team to coordinate, also in quick matches. Some people play games for fun, and playing vs medic is not fun. Regardless of how you can defend this hero.

    If coordinating your team becomes the focus of the game, such as in a potential competitive mode (where you actually play 5v5). Then there is room for unfun abilities if they add to the competitive/strategic depth of the game. I.E. you create a dance of forcing the medic out of position, while avoiding the enemy gunslingers.

    In non organized environments where people do not communicate, playing vs a medic just ruins the experience, rather than create strategic depth.
  • ShawnHalogenShawnHalogen
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    seraphmage wrote: »
    ...
    Maybe instead of a drone going to a specific player, it goes to the ground and heals within a certain radius. For a player to heal, they would lose mobility. Even if they still got a shield out of it, they would lose it once they leave the area.

    This seems a lot like the Harrier mobile healing/fuel stations.
    Your're right. I forget about this when I wrote it.

    seraphmage wrote: »
    I made a suggestion in another thread that amounts to replacing the Battle Medic's passive heal with a drone self-healing mechanic. In essence, the medic would have to have at least one of their drones on their person to receive the passive healing. This turns the healing drones into less of a free resource. The medic now must decide whether healing two allies at once is worth the extra vulnerability. This is, of course, just one of many possible ways to tweak the role without making it near useless.
    This is a much better suggestion. I tend to favor changes that require the player to make choice. It's more enjoyable for me.

    seraphmage
  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
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    seraphmage wrote: »
    This is a game that includes support roles by design. We are getting another one at release (i.e. Harrier). While you are not out and saying it, it really seems like the gist of your argument is "delete support roles so I can frag easier."
    .....
    .....
    3. Healing now has the same speed as the health stations located on the map. The healing ramps up over time so a high health total target can be healed relatively quickly. If the healed target deals damage to an enemy, the healing is interrupted similarly to health station heals.

    With these changes, the battle medic is still relevant, because it lets teammates regain their health without them having to waste time finding a health station. With less wasted time they can contribute to contesting the objective much sooner.

    This might also drastically reduce the power level of the battle medic role as a whole. Buffs could be applied to other areas of the character, such as their grenade launcher, to offset this power loss.

    These changes should completely remove the aspect of this hero that gives me cancer. Which is frag denial in the lamest form.

    TL;DR
    The battle medic ruins this game for me. It is the worst feeling to have your playmaking potential taken away by a player who does this by their mere existence. Rework battle medic to be an out of combat healer. Remove the role's frag denial aspect. Buff the nade launcher and out of combat healing output.

    I don't want healers gone, in fact I welcome something that can readily regenerate life, but please not in combat, where it cheats engagements.
    Harrier can heal but it is a stationary deployable that forces people to sit on it. You can anticipate an enemy receiving heals because you know that he is moving towards this deployable. The battle medic can save someone out of nowhere.

    I imagine the harriers deployable to be destructible as well (I don't know, but I would guess so), so he must place it somewhere safe. This doesn't feel nearly as bad to play against as BM.
  • seraphmageseraphmage
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    edited August 1, 2017
    ...
    I don't want healers gone, in fact I welcome something that can readily regenerate life, but please not in combat, where it cheats engagements.
    Harrier can heal but it is a stationary deployable that forces people to sit on it. You can anticipate an enemy receiving heals because you know that he is moving towards this deployable. The battle medic can save someone out of nowhere.

    Having the healing effect from the Battle Medic’s drones only apply when an ally is not taking damage makes the drones redundant if not useless in most situations. Given the high-paced nature of the game combined with the volume of bullets that are flying about at any point in time, this condition would only be met when an ally is either completely out of harms way or taking cover.

    In the former case they would likely be somewhere close to a healing station or health pack because the maps simply aren’t that big. As for the latter case, I believe game mechanics that encourage “hide and heal” work against the intended pace of the game. It’s for this same reason that I don’t really favor the medic’s current passive self-health.

    The Battle Medic’s kit is designed so that they can be effective on the front lines, in the heat of battle. Again, they are suppose to deny the enemy’s kills. They aren’t the only role that does this, by the way. You can be denied landing that final bullet that would have sealed a kill just as easily by having an Assassin or Wraith swoop in and take you out while your attention is on their ally. I’ve seen the argument “but dispatching the drone requires zero skill.” But is it really that hard to shoot or stab a target that doesn’t see you coming?

    Just like the Assassin or Wraith in this case, the Medic takes a risk by getting in close enough to heal their ally and deny the enemy. As ShawnHalogen noted in his post, it’s not as easy to dispatch the drone to a moving target who is taking fire as your original post suggests. Line of site is necessary, drones can get dispatched to the wrong ally if they cross your line of site while trying to dispatch, and the cool down on the drones is fairly unforgiving.



    Chaos_de_Tejas
  • JustSamJustSam
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    What a Battle Medic should be is a Mobile Healing Station. After a fight instead of teammates seeking health away from the objective the medic should be able to get them ready for another fight.

    My issue with roles, heroes, abilities, and ultimate stuff in shooters is the annoying factor. Right now it feels like there's a few things taking away from just having good movement mechanics and shooting. The focus of this game as I perceive it should be shooting with interesting movement mechanics. Anything that takes away from that should be minimized in my opinion.

    The games that have healing mechanics that I enjoy the most right now would be BF4 and Squad. You have take cover and cannot heal while being suppressed in BF4. In Squad you simply heal yourself, but it a choice of fire back or retreat and heal. That's the kind of decision making/mechanics that makes for an interesting encounter. Games that I find annoying is currently this and Overwatch. When you get someone down to a sliver of health and while reloading along comes a drone and now you can't drain their health faster then its being given. Overwatch is far worse in this regard, but you get the point. Shooting at an enemy while they receive health is just annoying.
    KangaJoo
  • OverbeckkOverbeckk
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    It's called Battle Medic for something. Otherwise it would be called Medic and it would give instant full HP.
    seraphmageMokrei
  • seraphmageseraphmage
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    JustSam wrote: »
    What a Battle Medic should be is a Mobile Healing Station. After a fight instead of teammates seeking health away from the objective the medic should be able to get them ready for another fight.

    This is the exact purpose that the Harrier healing/fuel stations will fill. The Battle Medic's kit is designed for in-situ (i.e. active/in position) healing. Their drones offer the only healing mechanic in the game that does not require disengaging from battle and therefore compliments the non-stop high-paced gameplay that I believe the developers intended to create here.
    ...
    When you get someone down to a sliver of health and while reloading along comes a drone and now you can't drain their health faster then its being given. Overwatch is far worse in this regard, but you get the point. Shooting at an enemy while they receive health is just annoying.

    Being shutdown from confirming a kill is annoying no matter the form of denial, I'd argue. Again, you could just as easily be taken out by an enemy's teammate while reloading. It's also worth noting that the healing drones do not make people immortal. I've seen plenty of allies drop like flies moments after giving them a drone. Under heavy fire with low residual health, you can still die with a drone on you. In a 1v1 situation it certainly turns the tables but no more than having any other role on the enemy's side swoop in for an assist.

    None of this is to say that the class couldn't be tweaked and still remain useful. My idea was to tie the Battle Medic's own healing to the second drone (i.e. get rid of the passive regen). This would mean that the medic has to balance healing allies with their own survivability. If you choose to send out two drones then you take the risk of being more vulnerable until one comes back. I'm sure there are other paths as well that wouldn't render the role redundant or useless.


    Bligliboo
  • BliglibooBligliboo
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    seraphmage wrote: »
    Being shutdown from confirming a kill is annoying no matter the form of denial, I'd argue. Again, you could just as easily be taken out by an enemy's teammate while reloading. It's also worth noting that the healing drones do not make people immortal. I've seen plenty of allies drop like flies moments after giving them a drone. Under heavy fire with low residual health, you can still die with a drone on you. In a 1v1 situation it certainly turns the tables but no more than having any other role on the enemy's side swoop in for an assist.

    None of this is to say that the class couldn't be tweaked and still remain useful. My idea was to tie the Battle Medic's own healing to the second drone (i.e. get rid of the passive regen). This would mean that the medic has to balance healing allies with their own survivability. If you choose to send out two drones then you take the risk of being more vulnerable until one comes back. I'm sure there are other paths as well that wouldn't render the role redundant or useless.

    Good point. I think that's why i can deal with the actual mechanics of the Medic, because the shield is not very high. You still have a chance to kill the enemy, you have to decide if you need to escape or if you have a chance to kill the enemy. But in situations when you are against both enemies, you still need to do this type of decisions.

    The babysitting mechanic is not that high on this game like others. Maybe i would prefer a 50 HP shield or even no shield, when healing just stop with damage. But the reason why i can accept this is because the shield is not very high.

    I just hope that this is different with Harrier. For example, the damage stops the healing of Harrier, and the healing ability of Harrier don't give a shield.
    seraphmage
  • JustSamJustSam
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    I gave two examples on how its not annoying in other games... :/

    The shield is overkill and maybe it shouldn't heal immediately? Above all while you're shooting at them their health shouldn't regenerate faster than the damage you're dealing them.

    Is the harrier going to heal too? Forgot about that.
    Bligliboo
  • AmerikaAmerika
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    edited August 2, 2017
    I don't think your thoughts are controversial at all. I've created a similar thread in the past and virtually everyone in the competitive scene does not like how much the shield influences fights and allows classes like the Enf, with it's 400hp and tiny model + best evasion in the game, to tank a lot of damage when being pocketed by a BM.

    And the reason isn't entirely because I feel that the BM's shield influences fights too much, even though it does. But it also influences how a BM has to play. They can't get into the middle of a fight and mix it up while throwing out their support abilities. It's much better to stay far away from everyone in a corner and if somebody tries to flank to take the BM out they get jumped on. So all the BM can do is spam from a distance and not really engage if they are playing properly in a lot of situations. So, right now, it feels bad to fight against anybody who gets instant shields constantly in fights and it also feels bad to play as the BM since, if you want to play correctly with proper positioning, you will be no where near the actual Battle.

    So I'm a big fan of removing the shield and then adjusting the BM's heal over time and firepower accordingly to keep them relevant/wanted.
    seraphmageBliglibooKangaJooMokrei
  • JustSamJustSam
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    Amerika wrote: »
    So I'm a big fan of removing the shield and then adjusting the BM's heal over time and firepower accordingly to keep them relevant/wanted.
    ^This

    I think the first step in balancing a game and characters is deciding how they're intended to be played. I'm not quite sure why the Battle Medic is even in this game to be quite honest. Especially on maps with a central healing station. If you get rid of those center healing stations then the BM starts to make more sense.

    So, here's the issues I see with BM:
    1. Either it exist to keep everyone healthy mid battle OR saves them time and keeps teammates near the objective. Map design plays a huge role in that. Right now depending on the map and mode it won't save much time to go to the healing station like defending during an uplink match.
    2. The other part of balancing them is how much damage should they be able to output vs how much influence they have with healing. To me its just a headache thinking about balancing a character like this. The conundrum being boring to play because low damage output forcing you to babysitting your team from a safe distance or having equal damage and being able to heal on top of that leading to that role becoming OP.
    BliglibooKangaJoo