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Gunslinger OP

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  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
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    edited July 29, 2017
    I'm not so sure there are hard counters for gunslinger. There are hard counters for assasin and wraith, yes, but gunslinger?
    ZalamaelBligliboo
  • BliglibooBligliboo
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    I don't really understand the warp cooldown changes, now Assassin has the same cooldowns for her dashes like Gunslinger. But maybe it's not a big deal.

    Personally i don't have problems with the damage of Tac knife, the cooldown is long, and it's hard to land, so i think the damages need to be rewarding. It's more like a little gadget, a "secret weapon" you can use sometimes. I think the damage need to be at least 150, maybe 175. But not less.

    For me, the biggest problem is the max damage of the Omega gun. With 2 body shots you can kill an Assassin, seems not fair (when Assassin is actually the weakest class of the game). 140 max damage for the Omega seems good to me.

    Other than that, i don't feel like Gunslinger is totally OP. For me he's just a little bit too strong at sniping at long range. And the cooldown reduction add to him more survivability.
    Chaos_de_Tejas
  • atavaxatavax
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    edited July 29, 2017
    Its a big problem with the range of effective health in this game. Where yeah, his damage feels strong against an assassin, but his damage feels very weak against a juggernaught. I imagine both are kind of by design. Also, if it wasn't for the jugernaught and titan, i'd be fine nerfing the damage of the Omega, but then i look at those two and i wouldn't want the Omega to be any less effective against them, especially when the gunslinger is outside of the center and fighting around either base; he would be next to useless. When you make too large of a discrepancy between the healths of different classes, you have this problem where its hard to not feel too strong against the weaker classes without feeling too weak against the stronger classes.

    Maybe If you lowered the Omega's clip but shortened the reload time, it would make it more difficult for a gunslinger to burst down a low health class in a single clip, but wouldn't drastically reduce his damage output in longer ttk scenarios.

    tac knife's utility is inferior to most class's utility. If the damage is nerfed, the utility needs to be buffed. Is it a damage ability with some utility or a utility ability with some damage? If the later, then yeah, nerf the damage, but increase the radius of the wall hack.
    Chaos_de_Tejas
  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
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    I posted this in another thread as well. I will copy paste it here too.
    160 damage, that can be made 240, and no spread is just broken as hell, no matter how you put it. All the other hitscans accumulate spread. Even if their theoretical DPS would be close to gunslinger's, they wouldn't be able to multiply it as easily as gunslinger can. On top of all this, gunslinger is the best surprise attacker ever, as he has dealt over half your life before you even notice him being there. This leaves him with just one more shot to kill you. The other hitscans maybe take 25% of your health before you react. He 2 shots enforcer, who is supposed to be the one of the tankier heroes... really? (Ok I haven't actually tested gunslingers numbers, but I heard someone say his damage was 160. Might actually be wrong about this)

    "but it takes skill" ok sure, but it doesn't take nearly as much skill (or luck) as in overwatch for example. This game has highly accelerated player movement, which makes hitting people something consistent, not something luck based. High damage per shot in a game with accelerated player movement is not a good idea altogether imo, but gunslinger is here now, so we will have to try and fix him as much as possible.

    Again, not having spread, and dealing a lot of damage in a single shot, has absurd synergy with headshot multipliers. This is the biggest problem for balancing this role. Doing lots of damage in a single shot has additional advantage in time to kill: TTK = time per shot * (shots to kill - 1). This part where it says -1 is a huge advantage for high instances of damage. I know you made his omega a charge up weapon to mitigate this effect. But good players can precharge omega before exposing to an enemy. Also, when surprise attacking someone, it doesn't matter that you had to charge it up, as they won't see you until they get hit. Now that I mention it.. For the love of god.. add directional damage indicators when we get hit... (pls) how can a shooter game not have these?

    Also, why was the spread removed from oversampling his alpha, this was never described in any patch notes, it was just put into the game without warning. Did he really need this buff too?

    Here's how you fix the gunslinger problems.
    1. Add audio for everyone to hear when a gunslinger charges his omega. This audio should be audible to anyone that is in omega's effective range.
    2. Omega charged damage to 120. This makes it 180 on a headshot. Still half your health for most heroes, but no more 1 headshot + 1 bodyshot
    3. Put the spread back onto oversampled alpha. It should only be perfectly accurrate when fired at the minimum firerate. This creates decision making: do I want precision or do I want more damage? Now you just spam click alpha to get the most damage and it has no spread anyway.

    If any of this makes him too weak, give him a mechanic that lets him regenerate warp charges somehow. For example, hitting shots with omega refunds half of a warp charge cooldown.

    One final note that could use fixing: Please put in audio for when the gunslinger uses their last warp charge. Tracer also does a giggle when she uses her last blink. This lets the opponent make strategic decisions based on exhausted resources. For example, it is never worth it for wraith to try and knife gunslinger, because he can warp out of the way at any time. If this happens, the wraith is just dead, because he can't do anything for half a second during his knife recovery. If we had this audio in place, the wraith would know it is safe to use the knife on the gunslinger without certain death.
  • ZalamaelZalamael
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    I would say the Gunslinger's ranged damage isn't too bad. It feels stronger than it did last beta, and I assume that is because they fixed his damage falloff. But on the whole, it isn't too strong, and the falloff starts at a decent range, so he can't snipe people across the map in a few hits.

    The problem with him being too powerful right now is landing successive headshots with both weapons at medium range (at roughly the point where his omega falloff begins), even more so when using charged shots with the Omega and spamming shots with the Alpha.

    The other problem, is that at close range, his Tac Knife gives a high burst of damage, and it isn't that hard to land it. In fact, I was aiming for headshots with it, and managed to get more than a few at close range.

    So yeah, I think reducing the maximum damage on the Omega back down to 140 would be a good start (210 on a headshot) and drop his knife damage back down, as now it is more of a close range burst ability with some utility, and the 20 second CD means it is better to keep it for burst. Lowering the CD and the damage would make it a better ability.
  • AmerikaAmerika
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    I don't understand the change wanted for the Tac Knife. Sure, I'm OK with it being nerfed. That's not my point. I honestly don't care about the damage it causes because most of the time I'm going to use it to gain intel on an area as opposed to any type of real damage. There are only a few situations where you can throw it and hope to get damage out of it. And when you do, due to the time it takes to recover and be able to fire again, you could have put 2 charges shots from Omega into somebody while also shooting alpha. It's not a reliable way to gain damage due to it being a slow projectile. So you're not guaranteed damage even in the best of circumstances, the down time is immense which helps offset the burst if you do hit and if you miss you're wide open to getting nuked by anybody looking at you unless you have dash charges up. And using your dash charges just to cover a knife through isn't the best use case for them. So I typically throw it into a crowd and just hope it hits. If it doesn't hit I make sure it lands where I can gain intel.

    Or does anybody have a counter to this?

    I'd rather see the Tac Knife damage go down but increase the projectile speed quite a bit and also reduce it's recovery time so that you can throw it in a fight and not be completely vulnerable when a person is looking at you.

    As far as stacking goes, yeah, that's going to be an issue with every character if they have any kind of ability to do ranged damage. Right now it's most visible with the Enforcer and the GS. I would also like a single character limit but only when it makes sense. In Ranked our Tournament play, yes. In pub play, right now, no. Not at release and not with so few characters to choose from. So I agree with limiting characters to keep one character from dominating when you stack them. Other games have similar problems with perfectly balanced characters that suddenly have a huge imbalance when you have more than one. I feel like LB is going to have a similar issue. And nerfing the GS or Enforcer or any other class to try and stop the power of stacking is a bandaid and will only cause the game to become a balance roller coaster and upset people. So, IMO, release another character or two and put in character limits at all levels of play outside of custom servers where people are OK with stacking.

    That's my 2 cents anyway.
    Chaos_de_TejasseraphmageJustSamitstrue
  • ZalamaelZalamael
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    I found a lot of situations where it was useful, such as hitting an objective carrier coming around a corner, or running away from me in a straight line while carrying an objective. Using it against Juggernauts and Titans is also easier than hitting the fast moving targets, it does a good burst of damage, and they are usually in positions where the intel is more useful, i.e. inside rooms. And if you miss, you still get the intel anyway. I've also used it to finish opponents when I found myself having to reload and needed to get the kill.

    For the most part, I don't consider the damage to be too high, relative to the cooldown. I just think the cooldown is too long, but in order to reduce the cooldown, the damage would have to come down too. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the damage nerfed (I main the GS) and it is very satisfying to land headshots with it. But given its role is providing intel, I often felt better keeping it for guaranteed damage rather than pre-emptively throwing it and hoping it highlights every target in the room. And the GS has enough burst with his guns without needing more anyway. So yeah, I would rather the damage was reduced, and the cooldown reduced as well.

    Red 5 made this mistake with Firefall, they baked damage into the utility abilities, and teams were forced to hang onto them, because they needed the burst to counter team pushes (this was mostly in Jetball, which is similar to Blitzball). So they often had to sacrifice the utility their abilities provided. You don't need the utility of the Tac Knife when you can see the ball carrier through the wall anyway, and if you position yourself on the goal, they will be coming towards you the moment they appear, which makes it much easier to land, and 300 instant damage on a headshot is really high considering you will likely have both guns fully loaded to finish them off and still be able to kill another player if they are supported.

  • KangaJooKangaJoo
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    edited August 3, 2017
    Before the gunslinger buffs godly aim players could solo carry games. Now they have been given god mode with the ranged omega damage. Alpha also doesn't have spread anymore??? (Was that even in the patch notes?) I'm not a gunslinger pro btw.
    Omega dmg at range was actually nerfed overall. Last beta uncharged shots did a min of 60 dmg and charged shots did a min of 54 dmg (yes the uncharged actually did more dmg at range than the charged last beta), while now the fully charged shot does 64 dmg while the uncharged does 34. What this means is that your DPS on the charged shot is very slightly higher than it used to be but your dps with the uncharged shot and your theoretical max dps at range is actually significantly lower now than it was last beta. Also the alpha pistol still doesn't go exactly where you're aiming and if you shoot a burst right after shooting the Omega, your first needle in the burst will go a little bit higher as a result of the Omega's recoil.

    The reasons why GS is stronger now are that his charged shot does more dmg up close, his reload/shooting bug is less prevalent, his warps are on a shorter cooldown making him more evasive and letting you do more warp combos midfight, his ultimate was buffed slightly, and the enforcer was nerfed especially in regards to longer range combat.

    The only changes I'd like to see on GS are a reduction to 140-150 dmg for a fully charged omega shot up close, dmg reduction on tac knife to how it was in the previous beta, and fixes for broken reloads/guns jamming.

    Tac knife is exceedingly useful for making dank frag movies @amerika
  • AmerikaAmerika
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    Zalamael wrote: »
    I found a lot of situations where it was useful, such as hitting an objective carrier coming around a corner, or running away from me in a straight line while carrying an objective. Using it against Juggernauts and Titans is also easier than hitting the fast moving targets, it does a good burst of damage, and they are usually in positions where the intel is more useful, i.e. inside rooms. And if you miss, you still get the intel anyway. I've also used it to finish opponents when I found myself having to reload and needed to get the kill.

    For the most part, I don't consider the damage to be too high, relative to the cooldown. I just think the cooldown is too long, but in order to reduce the cooldown, the damage would have to come down too. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the damage nerfed (I main the GS) and it is very satisfying to land headshots with it. But given its role is providing intel, I often felt better keeping it for guaranteed damage rather than pre-emptively throwing it and hoping it highlights every target in the room. And the GS has enough burst with his guns without needing more anyway. So yeah, I would rather the damage was reduced, and the cooldown reduced as well.

    Red 5 made this mistake with Firefall, they baked damage into the utility abilities, and teams were forced to hang onto them, because they needed the burst to counter team pushes (this was mostly in Jetball, which is similar to Blitzball). So they often had to sacrifice the utility their abilities provided. You don't need the utility of the Tac Knife when you can see the ball carrier through the wall anyway, and if you position yourself on the goal, they will be coming towards you the moment they appear, which makes it much easier to land, and 300 instant damage on a headshot is really high considering you will likely have both guns fully loaded to finish them off and still be able to kill another player if they are supported.

    That's why I went into detail about how it's situationally useful but not reliable in direct fight. If you're facing somebody of high/equal skill to your own and you decide to gamble on throwing your tac knife as anything but out of ammo desperation you are going to get blown up virtually every engagement. Sure, you might hit...but it's not as reliable as your aim with alpha/omega. And hitting somebody coming around the corner means you still have to guess...that's a good situation to use it in. But it's not a good direct fight situation. Right now it's potential as a damage weapon isn't very good. But if you increase it's potential you need to reduce it's power since it's already a valuable intel tool. To make it more fun to use in actual fights while still keeping it's utility, it would need to be sped up, recovery brought down and power reduced. What I had in mind is similar to how the Tomahawk works in one of the CoD games. I know how it works because I watched an @blindrob video haha.

    Just because you can land shots, and I did to, doesn't make it useful in a direct engagement or anything more than a luck/random element for the most part outside of a few specific cases (tunnels under Promenade for example). I'd rather have it be utility + somewhat reliable as an "oh sh!t" option than what it is now...even at reduced power. It would also lower his burst potential and help eliminate some "god that was unfair" feelings which tends to sway balance discussions.

    That's my logic anyway. Feel free to counter it though. Just try to shy away from the, 'well i hit just fine with it' argument. We all know it's not reliable at even medium range against anything that's actually moving correctly.
    KangaJoo
  • ZalamaelZalamael
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    Not sure there would be a point in countering your argument, saying as we want the same thing (faster cooldown, lower damage/burst etc). Not sure I care that much about having the projectile speed increased, but it wouldn't hurt. Just as long as it wasn't increased to the point where it is easy to land, I like that it is challenging to land hits with it.

  • AmerikaAmerika
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    Zalamael wrote: »
    Not sure there would be a point in countering your argument, saying as we want the same thing (faster cooldown, lower damage/burst etc). Not sure I care that much about having the projectile speed increased, but it wouldn't hurt. Just as long as it wasn't increased to the point where it is easy to land, I like that it is challenging to land hits with it.

    I don't care about the speed as much as I care about the amount of time it takes before you can go back to shooting. Throwing it in a fight, even if it wasn't super reliable to hit, is an amazingly bad idea in most situations due to how long it takes to get back to actual shooting.

    Lower damage, increase the speed slightly, lower the time you're stuck in the throw animation and you have something you can use in a fight just as much as you can use for intel. That makes it, IMO, much better in both roles.
    atavaxGoidEpoxy
  • GoidGoid
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    [/quote]

    I don't care about the speed as much as I care about the amount of time it takes before you can go back to shooting. Throwing it in a fight, even if it wasn't super reliable to hit, is an amazingly bad idea in most situations due to how long it takes to get back to actual shooting.

    Lower damage, increase the speed slightly, lower the time you're stuck in the throw animation and you have something you can use in a fight just as much as you can use for intel. That makes it, IMO, much better in both roles.[/quote]

    I like that idea.
  • ZalamaelZalamael
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    The thing is, that delay in activating the knife and throwing it gives you just enough time to correct your aim to ensure you land the hit. If it was faster, you would have to be already aiming at the right spot before you activate it. I like it the way it is, I just want a shorter cooldown and lower damage to compensate for being able to use it more frequently.
  • AsbelAsbel
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    Hm, but the knife give "wall hack" so if they decrease the cooldown I don't know if this will be a good thing :/
    Could be too strong maybe.