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Salt induced constructive feedback

LawBreakers Rep: 1,920
Posts: 209
in Mode Feedback

To preface this post I'll explain what the events leading up to the decision to write this thread. You can skip to the contents of the feedback in the suggestions section below. I'm also not going to discuss the CCU. I'm giving this feedback in the hopes that one day the devs will have the time to adress these issues.

I was playing occupy on substation and I have a teammate who is facerushing the objective and dying, denying the enemy 2 seconds of score everytime, but not really creating any map/manpower advantage. Meanwhile I'm playing my usual conservative style, which is staying alive as long as possible and doing as much damage as possible with efficient pokes. We lose the game and I end with K/D/A 29/13/33. The rushing teammate types in chat something along the lines of: "You would think that good player knows how to play the objective." Directed at me. I got triggered hard by this because he attacked me exactly for the thing about this game that frustrates me. I said some not so nice things aggravated by his tone, lack of strategic insight, and the frustrating gameplay aspects. Then the guy ragequits.
I have no hard feelings just so that you know, rushing teammate. Maybe I should have been only constructive, and not also angry.

The problem I have with this game can partially be solved through teamplay, but this is hard to be found in most cases. The strategy I'm trying to employ involves out-economy battling the enemy team. At some point they will all be so low health that you can push in and kill everyone, then you have secured the objective and you can take up defensive positions and score some points. Facerushing the point and dying will deny the enemy a few points now, but in the long run you will never actually take the point yourself. Winning the health economy war requires that the entire team is adhering to this strategy, because any advantage created is easily thrown away by one feeding teammate. The problem is then that half the team is facerushing, while the other half is trying to actually win. The result is that your team doesn't get anywhere. (and then your team blames you for no PTFO... OK :/ )

What I want to achieve with most of my suggestions is to make it easier to win an economy battle, and push the game more into a health economy / teamfight oriented direction. It should perhaps also not require as much teamwork to play this strategy.
I do not dislike patch 1.4 as much as most other people do, one thing I do however dislike, is that it made matches uncarriable. No matter how hard I try to do as much damage as I can. It isn't enough to out damage the enemy's respawn timer and medic heals. (A player respawns at full health, which kinda is a heal, cause they had 0 health before). Trying to enforcer the enemy team's health down (to create map advantage) is sometimes downright impossible with a team full of feeders, and a battle medic on the enemy team. In a scenario like this you would need to get a kill every 3 to 4 seconds to outkill the enemy respawns in order to capture the point. (and this already assumes that your teammates are slightly contributing. If they aren't doing any damage and just die, you need to get a kill every 2 seconds) This is just super irrealistic and the game is unwinnable.
Patch 1.4 also upset game mode balance (blitzball), and hero balance as well (vanguard). The group spawning aggravates these problems so much and should really go. Instead of rolling back 1.4 however, I would like to suggest some other changes that combat the problems.

Now it could be that I experience things different as a top 10% mmr player. With the matchmaker trying to balance teams it compensates for you by giving you potatoes as teammates. I don't say this to boast, I just mention it to add context to my reference frame. Some other players are waaaay better than me. I does explain in part why I see the unwinnable economy war as a frustrating aspect of the game.

Global changes for all modes: Remove group spawning for the "defending" team. If you die, you should not respawn faster because a teammate died just before you. This is hurting the playmaking potential of the enemy team, and also the competitive viability of the game. Whichever team is considered "defending" can be defined for each game mode.

The strategy employed here by most players, is to grab the ball and facerush the enemy goal, hoping that the enemy team will ignore them. This isn't good, engaging, or competitive gameplay. Patch 1.4 increased everyone's health, which made the ball carrier live long enough for a single shooter to not be able to take them down. It has further increased the facerush strategy's viability. At the same time the group spawning is hurting the viability of tactical play. What I would like to see in this game mode, is that the ball carrier is not the first one to engage the enemy team, instead his team is weakening/distracting the enemy first, and then the ball carrier has space to try and score. Creating map advantage (heavily damaging enemy player's or killing them) is a slow process, and enemy respawns are so fast that you often can't effectively apply this strategy. So I understand that most players resort to the mobility cheese scoring strat. Another issue is that kick is inconsistent. It doesn't seem to work when you expect it to. When kick is the most important defense against the ball carrier, and this defense works only half the time, there is an issue.
Changes for blitzball:
1. Ball carrier takes 25% extra damage from all sources.
2. The respawn timer of the team that is not carrying the ball is 2 seconds longer. (this team is also considered "defending")
3. Increase shot clock time from 30 to 35 seconds.
This will punish mindless facerushing heavily, and promote more tactical play. A single enemy can now shoot you down before you get to score the ball. Now your team will have to do some work before you can get in to score. The attacking team also has more time to create advantage, because the defenders have to wait 2 seconds longer to respawn. And the longer shotclock helps too.

Battery modes:
The battery modes are too defense favored. The team that grabs first generally also scores. The attacking is often also half dead when the new battery spawns because they died trying to contest the first one. This means that the team that scored, gets to pull the 2nd battery with relative ease, and thus score again.
Changes for battery modes:
1. The respawn timer of the team that has the battery in their base is 2 seconds longer. (This team is "defending")
2. The time to break the battery shield when it is in a base should be reduced by 20%
3. The time-out time between a team scoring and the next battery becoming active should be increased from 8 seconds to 20. (just like it is in turf war)
4. Battery shield doesn't drop if a defending player is contesting it.
These changes should make taking the battery from the enemy base easier. It shouldn't require[\i] a medic ultimate, and should also more easily by done by a single player should the enemy team not pay attention.The increased spawn time for the defending team also helps the attacking team play for man advantage. (Maybe we only need changes 1 and 3. If they prove to be effective you might not need to apply 2 and 4.)

Hero balance
Ever since 1.4 vanguard has been OP. The pulsar nerf and hydra ramp time nerf that followed were good, but not enough. What all makes it worse is that vanguard is super easy to play. The culprit here is the minigun. This thing outputs a so much damage that you don't even need good aim to kill people with it. The hero has no counter either, she can out duel everyone unless surprise attacked.
What I would like to see for this hero: Keep her as a natural counter to tanks. Having a weapon with high spread and absurd theoretical DPS allows the hero to be strong vs characters with large hitboxes and high health. Right now though, she is strong vs everyone. And an insta pick in any 1 hero limit teamcomp. You could do a simple nerf along the lines of "reduce max fire rate by 5%-10%" but I fear that this may hurt her ability to be strong vs the tanks. Instead maybe something like this:
Vanguard changes:
1. Increase maximum and minimum spread by 15%-20% (spread will inverse quadratically affect accuracy at infinite range, but at close range less than quadratically)
2. Increase damage per shot by 10%
3. increase pellet count per shot from 3 to 5. (without further affecting dps) So something like 5*9 instead of the current 3*13
This will result in vanguard being a strong anti titan and anti jugg hero, and also able to fight wraith and assassin with pulsar (and high close range damage) at close range. At the same time she wont be so strong at medium range which allows enforcer and gunslinger to be more favored at this range. Wraith and Harrier should also do better medium range damage than this new vanguard. The pellet count increase is to alleviate possibly induced variance from the increased spread. (I know it is not flavorful to let a 3 barrel gun shoot 5 pellets, but gameplay > aesthetics). These changes would in general, allow for more counterplay by staying out of the vanguards range, instead of hiding and waiting for the vanguard to reload.

Vanguard is the biggest imbalance in the game right now.
Other ones that could be looked at, but I'm not so sure about are:
-Harrier magazine size seems a bit large.
-Assassin flux blast should probably not deal any damage.
-Titans slow mine should be easier to destroy by shooting it.
-medic was buffed into oblivion in 1.4. The heals are synergistic with the passive regen. I don't like how the medic can interfere in a duel, without needing line of sight to the enemy. (But that is just my scrub mentality.) The 80 point shield makes vanguard even more OP. (The highest damage output hero benefits the most from 80 extra hp)

Heroes that have poor dueling ability, but a lot of mobility to engage and disengage will benefit from my proposed changes to spawn times and gamemodes. As it is no longer necessary to pick something that can immediately fight on the objective. This should help wraith out a lot. (If kills matter more, wraith has more time to get value, and he needs time because he has to find a flank.)

Euhm... This post isn't as coherent as it could have been, but anyway, thanks for reading. B)


  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,920
    Posts: 209
    I can't edit my posts since forever, sorry for the bad formatting.
  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,920
    Posts: 209
    euhhh.. so much to say here.. where do I start?

    When we have no dedicated tank player on our team, we can't afford walking onto the point, that would merely be instant death, and giving them more score. In this game they had a jugg + medic. So perhaps our teamcomp was flawed from the start? The only way we are going to be able to stand on point is to remove enemy threat. The sad part about this is, that because jugg takes a year and a half to kill, it isn't worth shooting at him because you put yourself at too much risk for too little reward. So you end up forced to kill all the other players before you kill the jugg. In the meantime the jugg has scored over a million points before you finally got to kill him after having killed his team first. This process takes 20+ seconds, which is half the circle time, and also includes a few enemy respawns as well.

    So judging from the stats you listed, our team was killing stuff as well. In my experience though, I felt like if the team had played more conservatively, we could have secured man advantage sooner. We had a vanguard player that (at least once) walked on point holding mouse 1. Instead he could have poked in and out of cover, rapidly forcing the enemy circle occupants back. Instead he walked in way too aggressively and died, causing our team to lose a valuable source of pressure. Pressure we need to get the point as fast as possible.

    Also, I was playing enforcer, and I can't walk on point with that to contest. I have to play medium range. Sadly the points on station are mostly close range. So I have to contest the lanes around the point, which are more medium rangy.

    I was hoping that, if everyone played conservative, you could secure man advantage fast enough to score more points than the enemy team. I explained in my post
    how futile the strategy can be sometimes, but only when the team isn't playing the same strategy. Like you said you went to "contest the zone", but when our teamcomp isn't capable of doing that, (no jugg) then contesting the zone means dying, and when you die your team is greatly set back in the man advantage war. It is better to not contest the zone and not die, than to contest it for 2 seconds and die. When you're alive you can do damage and eventually wipe the enemy team (faster).

    I just disagree with your points 3.2 and 3.3. In the case we have no jugg, my playstyle was the only way we could win. Point 3.3 just sabotages that playstyle completely. You should let the enemy have a few points now, so that you can score more points yourself later.

    3.4: I dont think the match proved that. If we all played using my strategy instead of the strategy in 3.3, it could have worked well enough to win the game.

    I admit that ideally we should have a juggernaut and have him contest point, but we didn't. So maybe we should adapt our playstyle to match that fact? We should take the point when we have the manpower to do it, and not earlier because that just forfeits all manpower we have. Once we have the point we can kill enemies who are trickling in very quickly.

    So yeah I guess I could have picked titan instead of enforcer, to more directly pressure the enemy circle occupants, but even that is pointless when you can't walk onto the point yourself. It is just a different style of doing the same thing. The point really needs to be safe enough before you can walk onto it. Also, titan can't directly confront a juggernaut either. The jugg has to be killed or zoned first.

    The only way to deal with jugg in direct confrontation is when you have a harrier tag him, and then have either a jugg of your own or a vanguard push him. But then he can still wall off the push ResidentSleeper
    (devs pls change the interaction from jugg and harrier to additive instead of multiplicative.)

    From your last reply I conclude that you in great part agree that the gamemodes/respawns should be rebalanced. I guess we agree on that.

    Jitspoe said that boss key is working out a plan with nexon, but it isn't final so they cannot disclose yet.

    See you in game some day o:)