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[ RELOAD / CANCEL ] This is not working at all

hehe2hehe2
LawBreakers Rep: 700
Posts: 26
Member
edited November 30 in General PC Discussion
Hi,

I need to bring this issue to your attention because this is a *MAJOR* one that's plaguing the gaming experience while using some character classes (mostly the ones with an alt weapon, but not only those).

Here are some examples that makes this bug obvious and pinpoints the fact it's cumbersome for the players :

Let's assume I'm playing with the Titan.

Ok, I start firing with my rocket launcher toward an enemy.

I fire 3 rockets (so I should have 3 left in the chamber right ?) and I kill this enemy.

I start reloading but suddenly, "out of nowhere" comes another one on which I have a good spot to jump on.

The animation/reloading was not yet over so I can assume there are still 3 rockets in my rocket launcher and that's not a big deal after all, I'll end-up in close combat with the enemy stunned and I'll be able to shred him in no time right ?

So what just happens : I jump, the guy is stunned but instead of switching back to the rocket launcher and allow me to fire with the remaining ammo, the reloading animation starts again automatically ! (then I can't shoot, the guy is not stunned anymore when I finally can fire again and eventually I'll die... *GREAT*).

That's the first example.

Summary : The reload / cancel mechanism doesn't work.

Expected behavior : If I cancel a reload by switching to another weapon or using another ability before the reloading animation has been completed, when I switch back (or the other ability is over) I expect to get my weapon with the remaining ammo and ready to fire. The only time it should start to reload automatically is when the chamber is empty. (obviously).


Second one (this one is a combinaison of two bugs, the one I just described above and another one related to the reloading animation).

I am now playing with the Enforcer.

I fire using the main machine gun weapon and since the enemy has low health I decide to switch to the secondary gun to finish him off. So I switch, shoot twice and he's dead. Then I start reloading and as soon as the new clip is inserted in the weapon, I naturally switch back to the machine gun (as you would do in any CoD game for example).

Next fight, the same scenario is happening but once I'm switching back to my secondary weapon, it will start reloading ! Wtf ?! A new clip has been inserted into the weapon ! And even if the animation wasn't broken in a way you see a new clip inserted but it's not yet available, it should be then void and the previous clip should still be considered as in place right ? So I should get 4 shots available left in the magazine... but no, the reloading animation will start again !

Sometimes, it will cost me a really high kill streak (near the 25 mark) just because I didn't pay attention enough to ensure the secondary weapon reloading animation was complete before switching back to the primary...

Summary : The visual animation doesn't match the actual engine reloading time.
Expected behavior : When a new clip is inserted into a weapon, whatever the end of the animation is, it should already be possible to switch to another one and the weapon should be reloaded when switching back to it.

Solution : Slow the animation down so that it matches the developer's expected reload time at the exact moment the clip has been inserted and allow the players to ditch the end of the animation whenever they want/need to.

I hope this will be addressed in the upcoming patches because this is really cumbersome with so many characters...

This will make the game really smoother and more enjoyable in many ways.

Regards,


RotoGluOn / PSNID: hehe2
  1. Have you gotten any trouble with this lack of reload/cancel mechanism already ?12 votes
    1. Yes
       75% (9 votes)
    2. No
       25% (3 votes)

Comments

  • Freezing_Freezing_
    LawBreakers Rep: 400
    Posts: 4
    Member
    Do not be misguided by the votes.
    A discusssion has been had on the lawbreakers discord. There were more people who disagreed than people who agreed. Most point that were made for changing the reload mechanic were:
    1. "other games do it that way" : Other games do it many ways, LB doesn't have to be that way
    2. "changes it increases the skill cap" : no it does the exact opposite. By removing a downside to reloading willy nilly, you lower it, not increase it.
    3. "quake did it this way" : quake had ammo to pickup (correct me if i'm wrong), and this game is also not quake.
    4. "if i jump on someone (titan) while reloading, you are stuck in reloading animation and can't shoot" : yes its on you that you decided to engage while not having ammo. Titan also has a second weapon, so switch weapon and use the weapon most effective in close range.
    5. "purposly inventing mechanics that players have been doing different for years" : the exact reason that creativity in shooters and other games is stagnating. Try different stuff, make players adapt to it.
    6. "i'm top tier player, so not the only one feeling this way" : trump is top tier american, let's not start this discussion shall we?
    7. "but it's a fast paced game, i shouldn't have to wait because i have to reload" (not exact quote) : yes, you do, you need to be aware of your actions.

    Other arguments against changing reload times:
    1. Imagine vanguard that can skip half her reload animation....
    2. because you can't reload at the right time, doesn't mean the game should change
    3. "Idk, the reload system doesn't bother the top competitive players that much. Basically, just don't press r unless you're safe or out of ammo. Cancelling a reload would be nice, but it would remove a certain ability to punish spamming reload after every shot."
      - Aero team-member of SLP , winner of LB dreamhack tournament
  • Freezing_Freezing_
    LawBreakers Rep: 400
    Posts: 4
    Member
    ( that enter press came out weird, i am not aero, that's a quote by aero :) )
  • hehe2hehe2
    LawBreakers Rep: 700
    Posts: 26
    Member
    Well, don't let the @Freezing_ post fool you around with those petty arguments.

    There were basically two people arguing against me on discord, some would even agree that this is making their life miserable and would rather play with a true reload/cancel mechanism but yet for some strange reason they think they have to adapt living in misery...

    mirari_lb_reload_cancel.png

    I don't think it's a good thing and every competitive game so far has a reload/cancel mechanism. LB isn't part of those games (currently at least, who knows about the future ?). With a non existant pro scene -- let's be honest, a tournament with like two teams involved is not creating a pro-scene --, their members's voices have not the strength of what would someone like Fatal1ty's have on his golden Quake III Arena age...).

    Anyway, the skill gap would actually increase because the game would be faster and people with higher skill can react quickly, there is no skill involved by being forced to retreat to be able to reload. It's not about "spamming reload"... Any CoD player would agree with me on this.

    This game is meant to be fun and fast, not designed for the brain dead grandmas with slow reflexes and still living in the past decades.

    Please vote and tell us what you think there !

    Thanks.


    RotoGluOn / PSNID: hehe2

  • Freezing_Freezing_
    LawBreakers Rep: 400
    Posts: 4
    Member
    Op did in fact not read his own screenshot, i quote : "i quite like it (being the reload animations) as a feature accross the board" .
    There were more people saying "i don't care" or " it doesn't matter" , which is more on the "i have no problem with the reload" side of the spectrum.

    Also, saying "it's making people's life miserable" is a bit dramatic isn't it? "living in misery" are you serious.

    Not thinking about when you reload and just running around does not require more skill. it requires less ( see COD franchise)
    "not designed for brain dead grandma's ", weren't you just dissproving the fact that thinking about when to reload is a good thing?

    "still living in past decades " you are arguing for a mechanic because "other games do it" , who is living in the past here?
  • Freezing_Freezing_
    LawBreakers Rep: 400
    Posts: 4
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    You also did not take the time to actually argument against the points i made.
    You only called them "petty" . This is not how you prove your point
  • KangaJooKangaJoo
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,935
    Posts: 199
    Member
    Freezing_ wrote: »
    [*] "other games do it that way" : Other games do it many ways, LB doesn't have to be that way[/list]
    Other games do it this way because it's intuitive, in some cases like in csgo can be used to bait opponents, and because FPS games aren't predictable and need to give the player some flexibility so that they can avoid getting killed mid reload without having to play very passively, something especially important in objective based games.
    Freezing_ wrote: »
    [*] "changes it increases the skill cap" : no it does the exact opposite. By removing a downside to reloading willy nilly, you lower it, not increase it.[/list]
    This would be true if knowing when to reload required skill and awareness, which it does in some games but not this one, and if reloading was only a punishment for poor play, which it is in some games but not this one, rather than a mechanic that seems to be here mostly to avoid spam and to promote teamwork. If audio cues were louder, if the movement was slower and more predictable, and if the directional audio was more realistic/clearer, then you could argue that reloading at the wrong time is something a good player could almost always avoid without having to play very passively. In lawbreakers this isn't the case. The audio cues that tell you about player movement are usually drowned out by the shooting and even if they weren't, people can start approaching your position from out of earshot right when you begin reloading and be shooting at you before you finish reloading since the movement in this game is fast and the reloads on many guns are long. Games where it makes sense to punish people for reloading at the wrong time because they should've known better are ones like CS where the audio is very clear and where players don't have to compensate for the fast movement by falling back way behind teammates/cover to guarantee they won't get rushed while reloading.
    Freezing_ wrote: »
    [*] "quake did it this way" : quake had ammo to pickup (correct me if i'm wrong), and this game is also not quake.[/list]
    Quake didn't do it this way. Quake has no reloads which is why it can be a spam fest on poorly designed maps that have an abundance of easy to pick up ammo.
    Freezing_ wrote: »
    [*] "if i jump on someone (titan) while reloading, you are stuck in reloading animation and can't shoot" : yes its on you that you decided to engage while not having ammo. Titan also has a second weapon, so switch weapon and use the weapon most effective in close range.[/list]
    Yep, not arguing that people should be free to make dumb decisions and get away with them. Thing is with a reload cancel, the titan player would still be punished since they'd still be vulnerable for a while before being able to use their rl. When we say we want a reload cancel we aren't saying we want to instantly stop the animation or cut it short. We're just saying we want a way to use our weapon without going through the full reload if there was still ammo left in it.
    Freezing_ wrote: »
    [*] "but it's a fast paced game, i shouldn't have to wait because i have to reload" (not exact quote) : yes, you do, you need to be aware of your actions.[/list]
    Awareness is important for sure and will always be rewarded but when there's more unpredictability than usual, players need ways to work around it to make sure fights are decided by skill and not just whoever happened to get lucky. Having a very long reload, plus classes that only have enough ammo to kill 2 people (mostly problems for vg and gs but can still be annoying on the other classes), plus movement that allows people to close large distances without being audible if there's any shooting going on anywhere in the map means the only reliable way to avoid getting killed while reloading is to switch gears and position yourself very passively while reloading. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it doesn't really fit with the fast pace imo and is far less enjoyable to play.

    Freezing_ wrote: »
    Other arguments against changing reload times:

    magine vanguard that can skip half her reload animation....[/list]
    Not what we're asking for so not really sure why you're bringing it up. Like I said before we're not asking for a button to just instantly stop reloading and start shooting.
    Freezing_ wrote: »
    because you can't reload at the right time, doesn't mean the game should change
    You're right but I'm not asking for a reload cancel because I can't reload at the right time. Based on my KDR and how often I catch people with their pants down, I'd say it's a benefit for me more often than not, I'm asking for it because I don't like having such a large punishment, basically guaranteed death, for something that is so unpredictable unless you play very passively, something that I don't consider to be fun.
    Freezing_ wrote: »
    [*] "Idk, the reload system doesn't bother the top competitive players that much. Basically, just don't press r unless you're safe or out of ammo. Cancelling a reload would be nice, but it would remove a certain ability to punish spamming reload after every shot."
    - Aero team-member of SLP , winner of LB dreamhack tournament
    That quote isn't an argument against reload cancelling and in fact is about as ambivalent on the subject as you can get. He literally says it would be nice and then says but it would make punishing spammers harder. Also aero is an enforcer main which is the class that's least affected by this since he has two weapons which both have enough ammo to get a couple kills and both have fast reloads. Go ask prizz or rkta or someone that actually is affected by no reload cancels.

    Btw, when I asked one of the gameplay designers why there isn't a reload cancel, the answer I got was something like "we don't have one because we wanted to have a tiered reload system and there isn't a simple way to have a tiered reload system while also having reload cancels." While that's a fair enough answer, it's not true as you can still have a tiered reload system while having reload cancels you just can't have tiered reloads if the player still has ammo in their mag. Battlefield games have been doing this for a while and I'm sure it's been done by other games as well. And no, I'm not saying LB needs this because Battlefield has it, I'm saying LB would be better with reload cancels for the reasons I outlined earlier. I'm just using BF's system as an example of how you can keep the tiered system while still having cancels.
  • KangaJooKangaJoo
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,935
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    Also, can we move this to gameplay or something? It's not a bug, just a design choice.
  • BKP_JakeBKP_Jake
    LawBreakers Rep: 740
    Posts: 20
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    KangaJoo wrote: »
    Also, can we move this to gameplay or something? It's not a bug, just a design choice.

    Moved to gameplay since this is as designed. We appreciate all the feedback though and hope you all keep it coming! :D

    Also FYI, most weapons have tiered reloads. So you can essentially skip half of the animation if you start to reload half way though and then switch weapons.
  • iLikeCookiesQiLikeCookiesQ
    LawBreakers Rep: 1,920
    Posts: 199
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    Something i've noticed is how weapon lower and raise animations cant be tiered in the way reloads can. If I have the aerator equipped and press "switch weapon" and then kick after the aerator has lowered. It wont raise the badger, instead it will raise the aerator again...

    This kick effectively costs you the kick startup + recovery frames + aerator raise frames + aerator lower frames + badger raise frames.

    What I'd like to see is the badger be raised instead. So the kick would only cost you the actual frames it takes to kick and recover from it. Not the extra raise and lower time of the aerator.
    hehe2