Real Talk: Overcharge as a game mode

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  • AmerikaAmerika
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    edited March 21
    I simply do not agree with the idea of making a match meaningless up until the very end in order to potentially manufacture a clutch win. That's a hollow victory and it's a frustrating defeat. I've been there and I know and that's how virtually all the people I play with feel too. We only engage in pub play on the mode because there is nothing else to do and there is more of a chance to get the battery as the teams are not coordinated and switching to defensive characters and positions on the fly with heavy communication.

    This is an extremely common criticism of the game mode that I hear from virtually everyone in Discord, in-game, on these forums and on Reddit. I am not unique in my feelings. I get what Cliff wants but that can be accomplished via changes that others and myself suggested (or come up with new ones) that still retains the heart of the game mode and clutch plays but fixes all of the issues pointed out in regards to being overly defensive, using the map more and making meaningful encounters more frequent.

    @Pex How do you believe coordinated high end matches will play out in the Overcharge mode? Do you believe there will be engagements happening at all outside of when characters ults are up? What are your thoughts on the rest of the map not being used very often since everyone is focused on a single super defendable room for the majority of the match?

    Also, my ideas for changing spawn times and turning off the healing station is simply a cheap way to fix the overly defensive nature of those rooms at low dev efforts (since you're still trying to build the rest of the game). There are better ways to fix it but it would require a map redesign and potentially a slightly different version of the map for Overcharge. I don't get why spawn times couldn't be changed. Even Overwatch does that to fix the very same issue of their defensive spawns being way too close to the final capture point. Nobody seems confused in that game so I don't think it would be an issue in LB.

  • innocivinnociv
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    atavax wrote: »
    basically, the concept is trying to make every match special. and you can't do it. By trying to make every match special, you're ruining what it means to be special.
    That's a good way of putting it.
  • DerkynDerkyn
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    What you think about when you are charging the battery, the charging speed raise little by little?.
    But when someone steals it , the speed resets to the minimum again.

    Maybe like that keeping it in the base doesn't feel like time wasted, and could be a chance to win the point fast and end the match if your team is good.

    I'm frustrated too, about having the battery defended like 5-6 minutes and then in the last 5 seconds, a new player enters and steals the battery and wins.
  • Uncle_BootyUncle_Booty
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    Pex wrote: »
    2. Cliff has specifically called out the desire to have 'clutch' wins. The last minute 'from the jaws of defeat' victory.

    Everyone should read this http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoldenSnitch

    This game mode is the Golden Snitch. It's one of my most hated movie tropes.
    You know how tv shows or movies will have some plot device where the protagonist's team is behind by an ungodly amount of points, there is no way they can win! right? But now the protagonist is in this one event that awards so many points that it made everything else irrelevant. Of course the protagonist wins, because he's so special and unique at that one thing, even though it was his first time ever!
  • Uncle_BootyUncle_Booty
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    As everyone has pointed out: there is no incentive to fight over the battery till 90% - your team could be afk for majority of a map and end up winning. There is no reason to do anything but turtle once you have it. For me, that is the crux of the disappointment in this mode.
    Why are we even charging this battery? Do we just love full batteries? We going to pop it in our Prius and drive it down Main Street in the big victory parade?

    How about we turn the tables a bit. Instead of charging the battery; the battery is full and we are charging our bases. First team to 100% Overcharges their base and they win.
    Imagine the battery holder in your base has conduits or arteries which spread out across your half of the map to fuel defensive turrets, health stations, health packs, motion sensors… various bits of defensive mechanism.
    As you use this battery to charge your base, these various things (can be map specific) come alive to assist in the defense. As an attacker, you can ignore these to your determent or you can destroy them (maybe they can manually repair themselves over time, or a mechanic class can repair).
    At certain percentages, various things come online to push the front line away from the battery.
    Example:
    20% charge: battery shields itself with a 1000hp barrier that must be destroyed before it can be stolen.
    40% charge: automated sentry guns come online a good distance from the battery room
    60% charge: motion sensors come online at the base parameter
    80% charge: health station and health packs on your half the map become overcharged, now doubled healing power or halved cooldown.
    100% charge: you almost won
    OVERCHARGE: your base AI takes over the map, activating sentry guns throughout the map, killing the enemy team. It’s game over, watching the enemy team get slaughtered is just your bonus. Now the base is active and you can charge your ipad.

    This also would result in pushing the battle out from the battery room to new defensive perimeters – making more of the map used for fragging.
    At 40%, battery is mostly safe, you’re now defending or attacking in the sentry gun areas. At 60% motion detectors are making defenders aware of attackers, so they can push out a bit – meanwhile, the attackers are trying to destroy the motion detectors.

    This gives the attackers incentive to always be attacking. As the defenders charge their base, it becomes more and more hostile as defensive turrets, traps, or motion sensors come online. Defenders will want to push out to exploit the base defenses.

    If you charge up to x% but the enemy steals the battery, your defenses go offline but do not disappear. Maybe the percentage can slowly drain?

    Another benefit to this change: it’ll make bad games end quicker and draw out great matches.
    Instead of taking 20 minutes to charge a battery regardless of who is in control or the balance of the teams: the battery will charge a base in 10 minutes. This means if one team is outclassed completely, the match ends in 10 minutes with a score of 100% to 0%. If the teams are balanced, the battery will go back and forth with both teams charging their base and will be something like a 19 minute match with a score of 100% to 90%.
    You can also use the base percentage to weight the XP rewards. This way, the winner gets a bunch of xp and the loser still gets a bunch of xp. Great rewards for a great match.
    Example:
    Guy A on winning team scored 5000 xp. End of round, he gets a bonus of 100%. Total of 10000 xp.
    Guy B on losing team scored 5000 xp as well. Their team had a base percentage of 90%, so with an xp bonus of 90%, he ends up with 9500 xp.

    In the end, I think this has some promise:
    Will encourage constant attack on defending base.
    Will make the game more enjoyable by ending bad games quickly and drawing out great games.
    Will make use of more of the map by pushing out the defensive perimeter as the battery charges.
    Potentially makes room for a new class which could repair base defense.
    You can still call the mode “Overcharge”
    You can still use the same maps
    It changes the game mode from a bastardization of CTF to a bastardization of UT99’s assault

  • innocivinnociv
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    The problem with the charging a base thing is that it would make it harder to come back than simple CTF.

    If they're at 90% charged and you're at 0%, some people are going to want to just give up. Unless you had other tweaks to deal with that.
  • KangaJooKangaJoo
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    innociv wrote: »
    The problem with the charging a base thing is that it would make it harder to come back than simple CTF.

    If they're at 90% charged and you're at 0%, some people are going to want to just give up. Unless you had other tweaks to deal with that.

    I obviously can't speak for other people, but I know that even if I were losing by that wide of a margin, if the fights are close and we've stolen the battery a few times but maybe didn't make it to our own base, then I wouldn't see a reason to give up. Especially since these matches are probably going to be designed for ~15 minute games, it wouldn't even take that long to make the comeback once you did steal the battery. On the other hand, if your team is getting destroyed for 10 mins and you're losing 90% - 0%, then yeah people would probably give up. But how is that any different to what happens now or even what happens in other modes like CTF? Last I checked, there has never been a shortage of players willing to leave a match early when they realize the teams are completely imbalanced regardless of what the mode is. Best ways to prevent players from quitting when the going gets tough are to make it so being down doesn't come with its own punishment (e.g. losing control in a duel), have a good MMR system to minimize large skill discrepancies in the first place, provide incentives for staying (item drops, xp, etc.) and punish players for leaving early.
  • innocivinnociv
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    edited March 21
    I honestly just do rather like the Overcharge when it does get down toward the end and the other team is fighting for that swing. The problem is how easy that can be, how hard it can be to recover from that last minute steal, and how there's nothing to do until it gets to at least 90%+.

    I just think it should simply lose some charge at least as the shield is taken down. And it needs to charge faster so it gets near the apparent "end" faster.

    I think the base charging instead idea is interesting too. Maybe the same, where the charge stops going down once you lose the battery, so even if you only get it charged to 10% at least you dropped them from 90% to 79% or whatever in the mean time. But I'm not really convinced that'd actually be better. Better than how it currently is, sure, but I think tweaks to how it currently is might be better still.

    There could be something on the UI too to illustrate what's going on. Two stacked up arrows by the charge amount as it's charging, three stacked down arrows as the shield is lowering to illustrate that the charge is rapidly being drained, and one down arrow as it's slowly draining when it's being carried or on the ground.
  • AmerikaAmerika
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    In a previous post in a different thread, I suggested that they could include some cool graphics on the walls of the map that indicate the base charge level. And I like the idea of it losing charge on a steal as it makes you care even more about protecting it and it gives the other team a bit of a chance even if they get the battery for a short while. Obviously this would all have to be balanced to make sure matches didn't work out to be longer than 12-15 minutes on average...but it would be fun and each engagement or even solo plays would have purpose at all points in the match rather that the very end.
    KangaJoo
  • AzerekiAzereki
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    Insanely grateful that you took the time out to write all of that feedback and to everyone else participating in the thread with their thoughts. Thank you guys!
  • innocivinnociv
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    Yeah if it is changed to where the battery charges the base, some map cues to show the base charging up would be nice.

    But just if that is what's gone with, I think something else needs to be added to it to make it swingier than ending up in situations where one has it charged to 90% and the other is at 0% and it seems too uphill.

    Currently it's much too swingy, obviously, but it shouldn't go completely in the other direction.
  • Wolf_the_LegendWolf_the_Legend
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    - insta score if u bring the "ball" to the enemy base
    - score if you can defend the "ball" for 30 seconds at your base
    - or only one option of the 2 above

    wincondition:
    - get 3 points ahead
    - match ends after 10/12/15 minuits no mater whats the score (higher score winns ofc^^)


    alternative:

    - charge your core with the battery to 100% first team reaches 100% winns.


    How it is atm I won't say its a competitiv game mode.

    This post is probably 9 month old but you guys still didn't change the game mode ... Shame ;P
  • Kin_ShurubyKin_Shuruby
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    I mentioned that the role of the battery should be reversed like two alpha tests ago lol. Right now it makes no sense to me. I agree with most of what you said especially with faster and more caps.

    Another supplementary potential change that could add a massive tactical element to the game is that they could add HACKING tied to modular map elements inside the respective bases. Just picture this:

    - On the edge of the mid section of the map there is a console that becomes active once the battery is charging base.
    - This console can be interacted with and has a 10-15 seconds "hack" time required to activate.
    - Once activated, it modulates some enemy base's components, either walls, doorways, health station, etc to make the enemy base more accessible and vulnerable.

    Instantly, this mechanic breaks turtles as at least 2 team members need to go to that console to either hack it or prevent it from being successfully hacked or counterhacks. It makes fights inside the bases less chaotic and cloistered up and it adds an interesting layer of tactical play to the mode which they can then recycle and utilize in other modes later on.
  • AmerikaAmerika
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    edited March 23
    innociv wrote: »
    Yeah if it is changed to where the battery charges the base, some map cues to show the base charging up would be nice.

    But just if that is what's gone with, I think something else needs to be added to it to make it swingier than ending up in situations where one has it charged to 90% and the other is at 0% and it seems too uphill.

    Currently it's much too swingy, obviously, but it shouldn't go completely in the other direction.

    Well, the idea with the mode switching to charging the base is also making the charge go up incredibly fast and making the cap goal be 5 instead of 2. So even if they were on 90% and your team stole it there isn't much time between you going from 0 to 90%. Increasing the cap goal increases the amount of resets which requires more fights on more parts of the map and less time spent defending a base (which also helps slightly weaken base defense as well). You could still remove 10-15% charge on a steal as well. I'd be down for that but it could be argued that the mode would become a bit more complicated for new players to understand. So much like my idea of turning off the capped bases health station it might be rough for new players and might not be needed with quicker caps anyway.
    Azereki wrote: »
    Insanely grateful that you took the time out to write all of that feedback and to everyone else participating in the thread with their thoughts. Thank you guys!

    No problem! Thanks for taking the time to listen to all of us suss out what we believe might make a better game and feed you guys some potential ideas for the future.
  • bumbertyrbumbertyr
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    I will admit, there were many instances where i would sit at the health station outside the enemies battery room to snipe steal the battery (Mainly in matches where i was forced to carry) Taking away the ability to heal would actually effect both teams which would help balance such a change out.
  • innocivinnociv
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    Ah Amerika, if it was bo9 and charged fast, that might work well.

    I still don't see why it shouldn't lose charge without the battery charging still, though.

    Also like some had said, something should probably change about the time before the ball spawns. More time before it spawns is good, but what if it required 5 kills to happen from either team before it spawns instead?
  • KangaJooKangaJoo
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    bumbertyr wrote: »
    I will admit, there were many instances where i would sit at the health station outside the enemies battery room to snipe steal the battery (Mainly in matches where i was forced to carry) Taking away the ability to heal would actually effect both teams which would help balance such a change out.

    To be fair, against people that aren't umm... Let's call them special, you wouldn't be able to do that. I've played against you a few times when you've done that and every time I just wait for you to come out then shoot you instead of trying to rush the rocket wielding tank on a healing station. If you were playing against a smart, organized group, that tactic wouldn't be particularly effective.
    Amerika
  • UndeadfredUndeadfred
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    edited May 18
    One thing I'd like to see is a measurable decay on the battery charge as it leaves the charges. Right now it's the last 50% of the charge matters. That's when you make your moves, and really that last team fight holds significant weight.

    Allowing a rapid decay as it leaves the charger makes it so you cant simply profit as much off the other teams charging.

    What level decay is needed? That's hard to say. It needs to be enough to allow some form of profiting off the other teams charge, but also not so much so it's the optimal strat.
  • AzerekiAzereki
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    Amerika wrote: »
    I simply do not agree with the idea of making a match meaningless up until the very end in order to potentially manufacture a clutch win. That's a hollow victory and it's a frustrating defeat.
    Make sure to gimme your feedback on the changes that went in for CB2! I think the overall intensity of the mode is improved while still retaining the clutch moments.
  • UndeadfredUndeadfred
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    edited May 18
    Azereki wrote: »
    Amerika wrote: »
    I simply do not agree with the idea of making a match meaningless up until the very end in order to potentially manufacture a clutch win. That's a hollow victory and it's a frustrating defeat.
    Make sure to gimme your feedback on the changes that went in for CB2! I think the overall intensity of the mode is improved while still retaining the clutch moments.

    It feels better. Mostly the rate that it charges. If you grab and get it back to your base defending it for one min is feasible. I still feel like it should lose significant charge when out of the charger though (yes the 5 second countdown is nice, and that is one way to achieve a similar result)

    If it gets stolen at 98% charge, and makes it back to the enemy base, I want some attempt to try to get it back, even if it's just this desperate dash for it.

    Correct me if I'm wrong. Is there a decay on the battery already? If so I'm not noticing it.